Helen Zille, the DA's mayoral candidate for Johannesburg, tells Gabriel Makin that the city is not at the brink of the abyss but already over the edge, and that the DA will not stay in power at all costs.
She explains why the least bad option after the 4 November election may be opposition rather than a coalition, why she does not believe corruption can be removed from Johannesburg with the ANC in government, and why she wants voters to consolidate behind the DA on both ballots so that the party can win 136 of the council's 270 seats.
She also describes the city's finances, with residents owing Johannesburg R81 billion while the city owes its creditors R25 billion.
The episode opens with the campaign, the Blue Brigades and the WaterWaxx borehole in Protea, which the DA finished for R2.6 million after Joburg Water abandoned it.
Helen and Gabriel then discuss whether she feels vindicated after years of being called a liability to the DA, her fight against critical race theory inside the party, and why the DA's support base is now roughly a third black, a third white and a third coloured and Indian.
She recalls Henry Kissinger's visit in 2010 and what it taught her about the DA's growth from 1.7% in 1994.
The conversation then turns to the drug crisis in Johannesburg, the "doomsday coalition" already running the city, her account of why Herman Mashaba turned against her, the MK Party's crimen injuria case, and her role in breaking the story of Steve Biko's death.